How do I talk my way out of this one
Omni, the reclusive caretaker of Every Topic in the Universe(s?) has been engaging me in a dialogue, trying to flesh out my worldview. He wants to know how I think the cosmos fits together. Good question.
You've been warned: I can't hope to explain all the various philosophies I'm going to breeze through here, that is the stuff of textbooks. I probably don't understand any of them well enough to do you or them justice. For that I'm linking liberally to Wikipedia, which is a good introductory source, to sate whatever curiosity you may have. Please comment with any questions and I'll try and answer them, or at least link you to something.I think I most closely ally myself with empiricism. It's just too simple and intuitive to not fall in love with. I just don't like placing undue emphasis on Reason, which I think is a deeply flawed human faculty. Nor am I into the Cartesian game of questioning the veracity of my existence and all that crap. It just seems silly to worry about whether my senses are decieving me or if there's some malevolent poultergeist keeping me in the dark. And as the whole of modern (that is, descartes to like, Kant) Philosophical discourse showed, the requirement for absolute certainty that led to "I think there for I am" leads, upon hundreds of years of obsessive over-inspection, to solipsism and extreme philosophical skepticism.
I'd much rather assume, as a starting point, that everything I'll ever need to know will come rushing into my brain from one of the various holes in my skull. Further, I believe that these info holes are more or less accurate in quickening the truth on up to my brain.
There's less to obsess over that way.
It's also a monistic philosophy, which I like--again for simplicity's sake. However you choose to characterize it, as matter, as energy or whatever, there is only one kind of stuff around. This is contrasted with dualism, which, thanks to a certain Jewish carpenter, has been confusing the hell out of the majority of the Western world for two thousand-odd years. It's the whole soul / body problem. If you've never bothered much with philosophy or examining existence, then you're almost definitely a closet dualist. Descartes was a dualist, and one of the most influential thinkers of all time. He has probably had a deeper impact on the mindset of the modern world than Jesus himself.
Seriously.
Have you ever wondered how, if the soul and body are these to totally different and unique things, how could they possibly communicate with each other. Where would be the common ground? Not even Descartes could answer that one.
Monism is intuitively simpler, but it has a few huge problems. Humans are wierd animals, and when we look at the world we tend to see ourselves as fundamentally different than all the other crap lying around. We can think. We can reason. We can take in stimuli, evaluate it, pass judgement upon it, make a decision, and act on that decision. We can then look back and critique ourselves, our performance, our place in the situational context. What other creature can do that? So far it's just us. So we exist in the world, but we seem fundamentally different than the world.
We seem to have free will. This is some crazy shit, especially when it seems pretty obvious that the rest of creation runs algorithmically, constrained by a rigid, non-dynamic set of laws.
That's the draw of dualism. Matter exists in the physical world and is subject to its laws. The soul is somewhere else controlling things somewhere outside the spatio-temporal constraints of the physical world, free to do as it chooses.
The problems with this are legion, and enumerating them will just make me pissy, so suffice it to say I'm a monism man, through and through.
But how then, within a monistic framework, do we reconcile what seems to be free will with the physical world, which seems to be determined?
Short answer: Either free will is an illusion, or the material world is an illusion. The road less travelled, compatibilism, is a tough row to hoe.
I'd like to hoe it for a little while, just to flesh out some ideas I had the other day. I know almost nothing beyond lay science, so if what I'm saying is utterly idiotic, I'm sure Mike will pounce strong and swift. I welcome it.
Compatibilism is like the holy grail of modern scientific empiricism--great to fantasize about, tough to find, and easy to clown of people for believing in. Not that long ago though, when quantum mechanics became shit hot in pseudo-scientific circles, people saw the principle of quantum indeterminacy as the tonic compatibilism needed. There was hope that scientists who like the idea of free will might finally be able to have it both ways.
The problem with this is that, regardless of how particles act at the micro (subatomic) level--how crazy and chaotic those electron clouds can be--the world at a macro level still works like a well-oiled deterministic machine.
There have been further theories presented that quantum indeterminacy isn't quite so indeterminate after all, but this is not yet mainstream thought (I did a paper on this, I'll try to dig up some of my sources--don't hold your breath).
So if quantum level determinacy has no bearing on deterministic laws on a macro (atomic and larger) level, then this doesn't help the free will issue, because brains are macro level things.
The other day though, I had a thought, and I'm throwing this out mainly because I have no idea of what merit it has.
***
I commute and I hate it. What I've done to make it more bearable is listen to happy music and develop operational programs to avoid spending time completely stopped in the 13th most congested traffic system in America.
I noticed that, despite all the insane people dashing in and out of lanes, doing crazy retarded things, if I stopped thinking of my fellow commuters as individuals, and started studying their patterns, I could make it through a commute without coming to a complete stop. Once I figured this out and developed an algorithm--forcing my better judgment (free will) into the passenger's seat. I can now make it to work 10 to 20 minutes more quickly than before. I rock.
As much as I love self-aggrandisement, there is a deeper point. I think this is a good model for the micro-macro dichotomy. If you get bogged down on the level of quanta, where shit is swirling and nothing is predictable, nothing important gets accomplished. If you pull back too far though, you miss the nuances of the algorithm, you just see masses of crap travelling in mostly the same direction.
See where I'm going with this?
What if there is a middle area, somewhere matter at the subatomic level (probably better described as energy) interacts with matter on the macro level. I can really think of no better place for this than in a brain, where larger-than-atomic level structures shoot energy back and forth across vanishingly small expanses. Admittedly, I don't know the nature of neurological firings, what this energy is made up of, but I do know that science has had a hard as hell time trying to map the brain in any meaningful way.
Is it possible that quantum-level energy can exert a non-deterministic push onto the macro level neurons and whatnot, building a kind of pseudo--more like a mitigated--novelty into the structure of the brain as it goes?
This would seem to jive with the way the brain constructs it self from infancy to age, building and destroying pathways, making and breaking connections seemingly at random.
It's probably most likely that we just can't yet get our hands around the laws of neural physics at this point--that time and science will find a deterministic answer.
However unlikely, it's intoxicating to think of a hinterland where indeterminism and determinism coexist and create beautiful novel structures like the human brain.
Anyway this was a flash of thought I had the other day, I've done no research to flesh it out beyond speculation so science buffs: have at me.
46 Comments:
You're killing me here, you and Mike both. There's no way i can leave any sort of thoughtful response to you guys' blog entries in the internet time i have allotted in the next two weeks. i'm utterly buggered.
Using this particular blog entry as an example, here's the kind of response you could expect if i attempted to reply: "...GO FREE WILL! BOOLA BOOLA BOOLA!"
So anyway, in the days leading up to Portland, i'll be killing myself making money, and not doing much good replying and definitely no blogging, though i'll be thinking about future entries since there isn't much else to do while i'm spending five hours moving soup from one aisle to another. For instance, last week i had an idea for a movie...it's about a cop from the Simon Weisenthal Center...except he's a cop ON THE EDGE who PLAYS BY HIS OWN RULES and also, THIS TIME IT'S PERSONAL. It ends with a car chase through Switzerland and a shoot out with a 90 year old man.
There now, as you were, i'll catch up as soon as i can.
-ben
Luke, this post is FAB!! :-)
I'll type up comments as I'm reading, and hopefully it'll all make sense:
Just FYI, I'm a WOMAN, lol.
Do you think that the soul and the body actually DO communicate with each other? Does the body thus affect the soul? Can the soul command the body?
If you combine monism with animism, as I do
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/2004_03_14_omniverse_archive.html#107950874313535090
then you eliminate the problem of "we tend to see ourselves as fundamentally different than all the other crap lying around." Seeing all matter as made of the same energy as thought, feelings and soul also does the trick.
We don't have any more free will than any other animal, we're just more successful at enforcing our will. I don't think that the soul has any greater amount of free will than the body, at least not until it's released from the body; in fact, it seems to have NO free will until death, as all it can do is follow along with us like a shadow.
Compatibilism is cool, but it doesn't quite describe how I see things: Determinism and free will are NOT the only choices, nor even mutually exclusive, really; although I know that some of the future DOES already exist to some degree, because of precognition, that does NOT mean that ALL of it exists, or that it can't be altered, or that people's thoughts and thus their chosen actions all already exist... from which *I* draw a view of total free will (in reaction to events that WERE probably predetermined, yes, but the WILL is still free) combined with partial determinism.
As important as quantum physics is to my worldview, I think quantum indeterminacy is sorta goofy... but, it's good to see people trying to connect thought to the quantum world, as the energy IS the same.
I'll toss out just one concept for further contemplation: the soul. What is the soul made of? Where did the substance of which it's made come from? What powers, if any, does it have? If none, then how do souls leave the body at death and suddenly become able to project a visible image, make sounds, and act on objects as "ghosts"? :-)
Eh? you're a Woman is it? understood.
I meant no offense or mysogeny, the internet is a sea of men, those claiming to be men, and everyone who says they're 14/f/cali--the controversy over the gonad status of the hot abercrombie chick, etc.
Anyway, I appreciate the comments.
With regard to your questions of territory, let me offer an anecdote. One day when I was a little kid I got in a huff because mothers get mothers day and fathers get fathers day. "Why isn't there a son's day."
"Luke, every day besides two is son's day."
Point being, a territory is defined as the natural range within which a given species exists. Since humanity can live where the fuck ever--including antarctica--that makes everything "our territory".
re: "I am an animal. I have needs. I have the RIGHT to food, shelter, and whatever I can get to make my existence more comfortable and happy, same as every other critter. I have the right to a TERRITORY."
isn't this a moot point? we do have territory, it's the entire planet, and we're destroying it.
You're right about marauding nature. It's the purpose of genes to seek as much reproductive fecundity as they can, regarding nothing else. In most cases a balance is struck, populations of herbivores rise and fall with growing conditions; populations of carnivores rise and fall with the population of herbivores, etc etc. Disease and natural disasters play their part as well.
No balance is struck with humanity. Nature can't contain us. For the Earth this isn't a problem in geological terms, she's still marching toward heat-death billions of years hense. We're a blip on the radar. It IS though, a problem for the hairless apes that were clever enough to become conspicuous consumers. It behooves us, lest we slowly die of inevitable disease, starvation and toxic shock, to impose an artificial system of checks on ourselves. This includes setting aside land for animals and plants. This includes consuming only sustainable resources. This includes building up rather than out. This probably also means looking for other earths to ruin. And on and on.
One question I have Omni, more on topic, is this idea of yours that humans have souls, but that this soul is simply made of energy--a kind we know not what. The thing I find interesting and would like you to expand upon, is the fact that you think these souls are capable of sustaining themselves without a body, that they are somehow created in the context of a person (from our conversation on existentialism) but once they are created and grow with a person, they are able to nonetheless shuffle off the mortal coil after death. How would this work? What about the soul would make it stay together after death?
Ben, that's a great idea for a movie.
You get hard boiled cops, international intrigue and Nazis.
That's a hell of a trifecta.
Don't worry, I'm not offended that you thought I was male-it happens all the time. :-)
I had the EXACT same conversation with my parents as you did with your dad, except the punchline was that every day was KID'S day, not son's day... lol.
I agree that everything SHOULD be seen as our territoy, more or less... which is why the persistent notion that NOTHING is our territory drives me NUTS.
When you say that nature can't contain us, that suggests that we're not PART of nature, which just ain't so, but you're right that we need to make the effort to balance out what we take by giving back.
As to why/how a soul would stay together after death, I can only make an educated guess... my interactions with spirits tell me that they DO stay together, and in a form that can think and act, but doesn't give me any inside info, as it were. Whatever this energy is, one of its properties must be that it can make VERY complex forms and hold them for at least a few centuries. That part of the future that exists now must also be made of energy, in a very complex form that "holds its shape," so that's consistent.
Are you gonna answer the questions I asked YOU about souls? ;-)
"nature can't contain us" wasn't exactly what I meant to say. being a part of nature, we are able to outstrip the checks and balances that allow other species to remain in a self-renewing equilibrium--thus we must impose an equilibrium of our own to stave off the inevitable crash (think peak oil).
Re: Do you think that the soul and the body actually DO communicate with each other? Does the body thus affect the soul? Can the soul command the body?
For future reference, I have a really short attention span and tend to forget questions asked early in a post :).
Anyway, I'm uncomfortable with even making a distinction between soul (or mind as I'd probably call it) an body, so yeah, I definitely think they communicate. Certainly the body interacts with the soul an vice versa. To believe otherwise implicitly admits to Parallelism, which is too damned kooky to even consider IMO. The idea that God created two separate things, mind and body, and set them on identical trajectories to give the illusion of free will coexisting in a deterministic world is funny to think about though.
Bring it back to Occam.
Same with all those tertiary systems, epiphenomenalism and whatnot. Utter pants.
I think we ARE nature (as much as anything is), so the phrase "nature can't contain us" becomes, in effect, "we can't contain ourselves," which is often true, so you WERE right in a way. :-)
I asked the soul questions at the END of the post, lol; that's a REALLY short attention span you've got there... you're probably related to my husband. ;-)
You said that "certainly" the body interacts with the soul... what do you base that belief on? I don't think you have to accept either that or Parallelism; the body, and parts thereof, creates all sorts of things with which it can no longer communicate after creation... and that's the simplest, most consistent way to look at souls, although I'm not sure I buy it because astral projection might be real, in which case the soul might be involved.
You didn't say what material a soul is made of... are you "agnostic" about that?
Did you read my newest post about souls? What did you think?
Did you read the post on animism that the URL I posted leads directly to? What did you think?
"we can't contain ourselves" that's much closer to what I was getting at--and I think you've got some taoist sentiment in you after all :).
And those soul questions I quoted were from the beginning, for the record.
As for what substance makes up souls (the mind): I'm not comfortable with the idea of idealism, it's too self-centered and counter-intuitive. Not that intuition is a be all end all, but the idea of a bunch of disembodied minds acting in collective dillusion seems stupid to me.
I'm a materialist frankly, our minds (souls) are dependent on the world, not the other way around. They are part of the world. What kind of part, I have no idea.
As for your posts, I'll respond soon, I've been working on an electoral analysis I want to finish before I shift gears.
Wait until I read "The Tao of Physics"... I bet I'll have WAY more Eastern mysticism of all sorts in me then.
Sorry for the confusion about soul questions; I didn't know what you were talking about, because the questions *I* was referring to:
"I'll toss out just one concept for further contemplation: the soul. What is the soul made of? Where did the substance of which it's made come from? What powers, if any, does it have? If none, then how do souls leave the body at death and suddenly become able to project a visible image, make sounds, and act on objects as "ghosts"?"
are at the END of the post... but you're right, there are questions at the beginning of the post too, and I didn't even remember that those questions were seperate from the bigger chunk of questions. That'll teach me to post at 3AM, lol.
Are you gonna give THOSE questions a try, too?
You don't have to buy idealism in order to say what a soul is MADE of... if it exists, wherever and however it exists, and with whatever relationship to other things, it has to be made of SOMETHING, does it not? So... what IS it made of?
Incidentally, *I* don't find Idealism to be counterintuitive, quite the opposite; my belief in karma shows me that thought DOES shape how the world is, and for once I agree with Kant (GAG) in that I think it quite likely that space/time as we see it only looks that way because we that's how we can perceive it... that's not how it really is. (It's clear that time does NOT work like we think it does, and in fact may not even exist.)
Stop asking such good questions, you're distracting me from my other blog.
I think we're talking about idealism in different ways here. I'm thinking of it in the old school berkeleyan sense, that what appears to be a world is nothing more than ideas in a mind--in 6.1 billion minds in this case.
doesn't do it for me.
If the soul (mind) is part of a materialistic universe than by all means "thought DOES shape how the world is, and for once I agree with Kant (GAG) in that I think it quite likely that space/time as we see it only looks that way because we that's how we can perceive it"
That's not a notion that requires idealism, it does though, require monism.
As I'm a materialist, I think the mind is some sort of matter/energy.
As for ghosts and whatnot--that satanic shit I used to feel in bed as a kid--I don't know, but let's discuss it. but as far as that goes, there's really no reason a mind, being made of the same stuff as a body or a rock--at the micro level at least--shouldn't be able to exist after death.
I think the biggest problem we'd have arguing for this comes from the issue of existence preceding essence. I formulated this question earlier and I don't remember *you* answering it.
How could a mind (soul), which, as you believe, cannot exist before a body (a rephrasing of your statement that we are not born with souls but kind of "grow" them) continue to live after that body fails? How can something that needs a body to come into existence not need a body after Time(x)??
That's a big stumbling block.
Where's your other blog?
I don't think that the world is just something we're all imagining... but I can't prove that that's NOT what it is, so I can't discount that entirely.
I'm all for monism. :-)
You think that the MIND is matter/energy... does that mean you think the mind and the soul are the same thing, or coexist in the same space? If the soul is made in part of matter, where is that matter... hidden in the brain, as yet unseen by science? If it's made in part of energy, from where does the energy come, and what kind of energy is it?
Are you saying that since a rock is made of energy at the finest level, and so is a mind, that if a rock can exist so can a mind after death?
I DID answer the "existence preceding essence" question; I said:
"If "existence precedes essence," does that suggest that we don't acquire a soul at conception? Because *I* see the soul as forming as a consequence of thought and/or feeling, I don't think a person has a soul until they've done enough thinking and/or feeling... whenever that might be."
And you KNEW I'd answered it, as you said "(soul), which, as you believe, cannot exist before a body." lol
A soul does NOT live; it's not a life form. It continues to exist after death because energy, once created, can only change forms, it can NOT be destroyed. Once the body has created a bit of energy, that energy exists no matter what the body does, in the same way hair and fingernails continue to exist after the body is dead... that's consistent. Why WOULD the soul "need" the body AFTER it's created? Remember, *I* do NOT see the body and soul as fused together... in fact, there may be no contact between them at all.
Naw, you only partially answered it.
"A soul does NOT live; it's not a life form. It continues to exist after death because energy, once created, can only change forms, it can NOT be destroyed. Once the body has created a bit of energy, that energy exists no matter what the body does, in the same way hair and fingernails continue to exist after the body is dead.... that's consistent. Why WOULD the soul "need" the body AFTER it's created? Remember, *I* do NOT see the body and soul as fused together... in fact, there may be no contact between them at all."
THAT is what I was looking for. ;)
so if they are not fused, then do you think there are souls that grow independent of bodies? Or bodies independent of souls? If not, that certainly suggests a connection
If you didn't get the sort of answer you wanted, why didn't you SAY so, lol? Glad you DID finally get what you were after-that's all that matters. :-)
Could a soul grow from other than a body? I think so, yes; for example, if a constructed mechanism of some sort, such as a computer, was able to think or feel, it would develop a soul.
Can a body exist without a soul? Again, I think so; some people may on fact be soulless, due to some sort of defect that prevents their soul from growing... every other thing connected with us can be malformed or missing, why not the soul?
Even if it turns out that bodies and souls only exist together while the body is alive, that STILL doesn't mean they're attached or in communication, any more than the hair you saw wash down the drain during your last shower is attached to your, or ceased to be "yours" even when it reached the ocean.
Still hoping to hear what souls are made of, and if soul=mind. :-)
God Omni, have you seen Ghost in the Shell? I don't know how you feel about Anime, but that movie would be right up your alley. I mean directly in your alley.
Still, you seem to think souls need *something* to grow, at least "a constructed mechanism of some sort." It seems like you don't think they can come into being without anything to help them along.
And yeah, like I said, what you seem to be calling the soul I tend to think of more as the mind. And like I said, I think the most likely "mind-stuff" would be energy of some sort, but I'm not sure what. That was in an earlier post ;)
Do you think there's a difference between soul and mind? I've reread some of your posts and I can't exactly tell.
I've never watched any anime... but I didn't think it was metaphysical, lol.
Yes, a soul needs something to "grow," or to exist at all; a soul is a collection of energy from thoughts and feelings, and thus needs thoughts and feelings to form... it's like saying to have a fruit salad you need fruit.
If you read the most recent post on my blog, some of this will hopefully make a little more sense. :-)
Where does the energy of mind/soul originate from, in your worldview?
I think that "soul" and "mind" are totally different; the mind is a physical object, an organ of the body, and the soul is energy.
LOL, now we've got the nomenclature problem again OMNI, what you call the soul/mind duality, I'd call the mind/brain duality.
And you really should check out Ghost in the Shell, it's all about the soul (intellect) and the human monopoly on it. Great stuff really. Anime tends to offer some of the most philosophically reflective Science Fiction in cinema. Better than I Robot anyway ;). Much of Anime is VERY metaphysical.
"the mind is a physical object, an organ of the body, and the soul is energy"
Aren't Physical objects just energy too?
I don't call ANYTHING a duality, lol. The soul is a byproduct of thought, and the body is just a shell... they're both facets of a living being, but hardly worthy of a psychological construct. (If you'd read my most recent post, including the side-trip to the post about animism, this would REALLY make more sense to you.)
I don't believe that humans have a monoploy on either intellect or soul... so that bit of anime might not be my cup of tea.
Physical objects are, at the finest level, constructed of energy, but that's NOT the same as what is normally recognized as energy; matter is a specialized case of energy, to which different rules apply... science sees them as different, too.
But you knew that, right? ;-)
Still hoping to hear where the energy part of "mind" comes from. :-)
I'll comment, but only because I've been suspiciously absent from this thread:
Soul stuff sucks.
Sorry. Unlike most elements of society, I have the utmost reguard for philosophy, both as major and as an idle pursuit. I've even been known to dable in it from time to time myself. I'm intrigued by your questions and ideas about solipsism, sketicism, dualism, etc, but I have less than zero interest in talking about the nature of souls.
Sure, I have less education than either of you about philosophy (and yet, probably more than both of you combined in total education :), but I can't bring myself to even want to think about it. Fortunately, it is interesting enough that I'll happily read *your* comments about it.
Carry on.
--Mike Sheffler
Duality is not the same as dualism. Once again, nomenclature.
Mind/soul is a duality, they are two things, hense dual, that doesn't mean they're separate substances IE Cartesian dualism. Similar words, worlds of difference. I've said repeatedly that I despise dualism.
"matter is a specialized case of energy, to which different rules apply... science sees them as different, too. But you knew that, right? ;-)"
I did actually, which is why I brought up the duality (once again, not to be confused with dualism ;) ) of mind/brain, which, even though you don't seem willing to admit it, seems to be synonymous with your ideas of soul/mind. That's also kind of the most important point of the post itself, that this energy would be working at the level of quanta, which would allow for novelty in brain/mind activity, while still taking into account the constraints of experience (in the form of macro level neural structures).
I think we're closer than you'd like to admit Omni.
And Mike, just FYI, when most western philosophers talk about souls . . . we'll say 95% of people living after like Aristotle, they're using it as a synonym for "mind".
It's a small point, but it's because of the inordinate weight Judeo-Christian theology has been able to bring to bear on Philosophical discourse that mind and soul are interchangeable.
As I've tried to show, even when Omni talks about soul, she's really saying almost the same thing I'm saying when I say MIND.
Further, people who are dualists tend to use soul, in my opinion, because it has an other-worldly feel to it, which is in keeping with the radical differences between body and mind presented in the tenets of a dualistic philosophy.
Descartes is the worst for this. His soul is IDENTICAL to what most people would agree are the aspects of the human mind--his view reflects the science of the age of course, but the point remains. For most people, soul=mind.
Using your example, we could say that hand/foot is a duality, too... and what would it mean? Where would it get us?
You DO know that you're splitting hairs with your view of duality and dualism, right, lol?
I'm the world's expert on my beliefs, so when I say I don't HAVE any "ideas" about soul/mind, that's the gospel. The one who sees mystical connections between mind, body and soul is YOU... try not to get us confused with each other. ;-)
Why do you think that the energy would be working at the level of quanta? Why would it be "working" at all?
I've never given any thought as to how far apart we are in our spiritual analyses... but, honestly, if you don't believe in karma, none of the little stuff adds up to anything. It's like an atheist telling a Christian that they're not so far apart because they're both pro-life.
I've never even HEARD the idea that mind and soul are interchangeable, just FYI.
I see the soul as having no connection whatsoever to the body... are you now saying that YOU think that whatever you're calling "mind" has no connection to the body? :-O
You STILL haven't said where the energy of souls, or whatever word you want to use, comes from. :-)
"I see the soul as having no connection whatsoever to the body"
So you're a dualist? how can a soul have no connection with the body if they're of the same substance? can you just flesh that out a little bit. Soul it out, whatever.
Luke,
I caught your point earlier about soul == mind. I was under the impression that that's what you meant all along. I just wasn't terribly interested in contributing.
--Mike Sheffler
Ashley, could you explain a little more about the "cosmic entities"?
Luke, as I've said, I eschew dualism; it's silly to me to pick 2 items, slap them together, and claim you've discovered a great truth.
Just because things are made of the same substance, why would that mean there's a connection between them? You probably have a wooden table in your home, and so do I... does them both being made of wood mean they're connected? Of course not.
Furthermore, just because matter is at its base energy does NOT mean that matter and energy are the same; as science shows us, they're VERY different.
Matter can often undertake processes which produce energy, but no permanent connection remains between the matter and the energy in any instance I can think of... why should this be any different?
The soul may not even exist in the same UNIVERSE as the body; it may exist in the omniverse, in the space between universes, or in another universe altogether... science tells us that there are at least TEN dimensions, and thus that the omniverse concept is a near-certainty. Individual particles DO pop into and out of our plane of existence, so who's to say that the idea of a "spiritual plane" isn't real, and that souls don't "pop over" there?
Come on, now, tell us what exactly you think souls are made of, and where that material comes from, lol.
"Furthermore, just because matter is at its base energy does NOT mean that matter and energy are the same; as science shows us, they're VERY different."
I understand that and like I've said before that's the basis for the whole idea I had.
And now I see where you're going with the non-connected soul idea. That's all fine and good.
But if there is no "connection"
then are you saying there is also no communication? Once again, like parallelism?
that's not very occam's razorish.
And for the record, when I said connection I meant it as interchangeable with communication. So if a mind makes a body move around, the communication that facilitates this is the connection.
RE: MIKE, understood. Terminology is such a huge fucking stumbling block to gaining any kind of common ground with people it's ridiculous. This is especially bad with philosophy.
I'm actually fleshing out a blog to that effect at the moment.
Normally, when energy is emanated, it moves away from the source and dissipates, and has no further connection to the matter that generated it. Occam's Razor would point to THIS as the idea to pick; connection of any sort being maintained, or regained, would be MORE complicated a concept, not less, and therefore would NOT fulfill Occam's Razor.
Since the existence of spirits/ghosts shows that this energy does NOT dissipate, but instead maintains cohesion, we have to discount THAT part of the simplest concept, but we can still hold onto the other part... that no connection is maintained or regained between the soul and the body that created it.
Occam's Razor might not apply at ALL, of course, but in order to believe that there IS connection and/or communication by any name, we need some sort of evidence that there is or at least a line of reasoning to show that there's likely to be... do you have any of that?
It's not parallelism to suggest that the soul doesn't contact the mind or body, any more than it's parallelism to suggest that the bowel movement you made this morning is no longer in contact with you... sorry to be crude, lol, but it's the closest analogy I could think of. The universe is FULL of things that have no contact/communication with each other, even if they're of the same material and/or from the same source... so why should the soul be any different?
Normally, when energy is emanated, it moves away from the source and dissipates, and has no further connection to the matter that generated it. Occam's Razor would point to THIS as the idea to pick; connection of any sort being maintained, or regained, would be MORE complicated a concept, not less, and therefore would NOT fulfill Occam's Razor.
Since the existence of spirits/ghosts shows that this energy does NOT dissipate, but instead maintains cohesion, we have to discount THAT part of the simplest concept, but we can still hold onto the other part... that no connection is maintained or regained between the soul and the body that created it.
Occam's Razor might not apply at ALL, of course, but in order to believe that there IS connection and/or communication by any name, we need some sort of evidence that there is, or at least a line of reasoning to show that there's likely to be... do you have any of that?
It's not parallelism to suggest that the soul doesn't contact the mind or body, any more than it's parallelism to suggest that the bowel movement you made this morning is no longer in contact with you... sorry to be crude, lol, but it's the closest analogy I could think of. The universe is FULL of things that have no contact/communication with each other, even if they're of the same material and/or from the same source... so why should the soul be any different?
Normally, when energy is emanated, it moves away from the source and dissipates, and has no further connection to the matter that generated it. Occam's Razor would point to THIS as the idea to pick; connection of any sort being maintained, or regained, would be MORE complicated a concept, not less, and therefore would NOT fulfill Occam's Razor.
Since the existence of spirits/ghosts shows that this energy does NOT dissipate, but instead maintains cohesion, we have to discount THAT part of the simplest concept, but we can still hold onto the other part... that no connection is maintained or regained between the soul and the body that created it.
Occam's Razor might not apply at ALL, of course, but in order to believe that there IS connection and/or communication by any name, we need some sort of evidence that there is, or at least a line of reasoning to show that there's likely to be... do you have any of that?
It's not parallelism to suggest that the soul doesn't contact the mind or body, any more than it's parallelism to suggest that the bowel movement you made this morning is no longer in contact with you... sorry to be crude, lol, but it's the closest analogy I could think of. The universe is FULL of things that have no contact/communication with each other, even if they're of the same material and/or from the same source... so why should the soul be any different?
Ashley, I respect your beliefs; I was just curious as to if you were maybe talking about Wiccan deities, or some other sorts of beings, and if you saw them as being the force behind karma, or if you see karma as something seperate.
Ashley, many cultures believe that it's ONLY in an altered mental state that you can grasp spiritual truths, and a case can certainly be made for that... or against it, of course, but the point is that we don't have any way to prove which frame of mind is "better," so all we can do is be grateful for whatever enlightenment we get.
Faith and analysis of spiritual matters are thought to be at odds with each other in some religions, so, if you just want to believe and not try to hash out the details, you've got plenty of company; what's important is that you have a worldview that gives you the answers you need. :-)
RE: "Why do you think the body creates the soul? Don't you think the physical form could simply be a host...not originator?"
Damn Ash,that's exactly the question I was trying to ask Omni, and failing horribly.
So yeah, Om, is the body originator or incubator?
Ashley, what new words did you make up? Making up new words is more fun than finding suitable existing words.
Indubitabilosity -- excessively, obtrusively, or sentimentally certain beyond all doubt. Your turn.
Ashley and Luke, I think that the soul is made from the same energy as our thoughts and feelings, and, given that idea, the simplest, most logical explanation I can find is that it's made FROM our thoughts and feelings. COULD it be happening a different way? Sure... but I've seen no evidence for that thus far.
I'm always open to new input, though; my desire is to keep learning more of the truth, rather than to say at any point "THIS is how it is." :-)
That's interesting, so let me see if I've got this.
The soul requires thoughts and feelings to exist, it's made of them, it feeds on them, it IS them. But robbed of NEW thoughts and feelings and the body that facilitates the creation of those thoughts and feelings via sensory input, they still exist. Souls are self sufficient and are not immediately dispersed to the entropic winds without a body.
Entropy has to take effect sometime though.
Ashley, you've hit the nail on the head; we won't KNOW for sure until the end.
Luke:
The soul doesn't require thoughts and feelings to exist, it IS thoughts and feelings; there's an important difference.
The soul does NOT "feed" on anything; it's NOT a life form.
Energy can't be destroyed, it can only change form, so the soul doesn't need new energy or the body to continue to exist; once a bit of it it formed, that energy exists FOREVER... that's science.
We have no scientific knowledge of the nature of the energy of karma, and therefore no way to know if entropy applies or not; since the soul is already in violation of the laws of physics as we currently know them just by existing, I see no reason to assume that it follows any randomly-chosen law without proof.
Omni, now you're just ignoring parts of my post, I said exactly: "it's made of them . . . it IS them"
c'mon, I understand perfectly, I was adding a little dramatic emphasis.
And you're not answering me, what about entropy? The body succumbs to it, the universe eventually will too. If it's energy, then a soul must as well.
I'm talking about the second law of thermaldynamics, not the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Luke, you said a series of things, and including the right answer as one of them doesn't make the others right, lol; it was only proper for me to corrrect those ideas that did NOT represent my beliefs. If we want to be sure what we mean, we need to be accurate in what we say, or agree with... right? :-)
I DID answer about entropy; look again at my previous post. Entropy is a related concept to thermodynamics, yes, but the words are NOT interchangeable... the reason I said nothing about the latter is that you never mentioned it.
Thermodynamics is the "branch of science concerned with the nature of heat and its conversion to mechanical, electric, and chemical energy," and thus has nothing to do with souls... as souls are NOT made of heat.
There's no reason I can see that the soul "must" anything, and in fact those who believe in souls from a religious perspective believe specifically that souls WILL last forever. Science shows us that the universe will recycle, NOT end, and thus there's no reason to think that souls will ever "end."
Ashley, I've said all along that the soul is formed from the energy of thoughts and feelings; that is my stance. :-)
It seems like we're straying into the realm of metaphysics, which is what my initial protests were all about. Anyway, I thought I'd jump in and comment on a few things ....
"Ashley and Luke, I think that the soul is made from the same energy as our thoughts and feelings, and, given that idea, the simplest, most logical explanation I can find is that it's made FROM our thoughts and feelings. COULD it be happening a different way? Sure... but I've seen no evidence for that thus far."
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like this argument is either tautological or a post hoc causal fallacy arising from *very* weakly defined terms (ex: 'soul' and 'energy' seem to be a rather equivocal terms in this discussion). Yes, the point is to discuss the nature of soul, but that means that you have to be very careful when talking about it in terms of definition to avoid begging the question. Also, even when arguing informally, not observing evidence to the contrary of your premise in no way validates your argument for it.
I also take offense to the statement,
"Energy can't be destroyed, it can only change form, so the soul doesn't need new energy or the body to continue to exist; once a bit of it it formed, that energy exists FOREVER... that's science.
We have no scientific knowledge of the nature of the energy of karma, and therefore no way to know if entropy applies or not; since the soul is already in violation of the laws of physics as we currently know them just by existing, I see no reason to assume that it follows any randomly-chosen law without proof."
If you're going to take the view that energy can't be destroyed, then it is also improper to assume (as in, "once a bit of it it [sic] formed, that energy exists FOREVER... that's science"), that energy can be created. Neither point of view is *quite* correct (think Hawking radiation), but you can't have one view and not the other.
Besides, if the soul exists, and (in whatever way you wish to assert) depends -- or is -- energy, *entropy applies.* Period. In this case, Luke is absolutely correct. The second law doesn't fail to apply just because something falls into Bin A or Category B. If it exists in any sense that we understand so far, it is subject to entropy.
My head almost exploded when I read, "since the soul is already in violation of the laws of physics as we currently know them just by existing, I see no reason to assume that it follows any randomly-chosen law without proof."
*EVERYTHING FOLLOWS 'randomly-chosen laws.' THAT'S WHY THEY'RE LAWS!* It is not necessary to prove that something follows a law! It just does! THAT'S WHY THEY'RE LAWS! Since the soul -- again, following the idea that it *does* exist in some physically/energetically meaningful way -- it is subject to these laws (including the second law of thermodynamics). Hence, a soul needs some force of energy to combat entropy. Not necessarily in the sense of falling apart (that happens, to an extent, no matter what), but in the sense that it somehow maintains itself in terms of temporal and local reference.
Perhaps your argument is that the soul exists in some other plane or in some other sense of understanding. That's fine, but then what would the point of making scientific deductions be when we don't understand -- or not aware of -- the rules of the space?
To summarize: Either a soul
a.) Does not exist physically and/or energetically in a traditional way, in which case all this pseudo-scientific reasoning needs to be abandoned because it is meaningless and only serves to inspire arguments that are a touch weak in the logic department.
or it
b.) Does exist, and is subject to the same laws as all the other matter/energy of which we can conceive, in which case, it is fair and necessary to answer Luke's question about entropy's effect and the need for a soul to somehow sustain itself.
--Mike Sheffler
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Mike, I'm sure you didn't mean to come across as contemptuous and belligerent, but you should be aware that that IS how your post reads; a slightly more courteous approach might better facilitate a fruitful exchange of ideas... especially when people's spiritual beliefs are part of the topic.
What's under discussion here are things for which NO evidence or proof exists; you can't "prove" ANYTHING about souls, karma or the energy of which they are formed. It's fine to have and state your opinion, but to imply that your opinion, however vehemently stated, "disproves" mine is just plain silly.
What I said about the laws of THERMOdynamics applying to heat was in quotes for a reason... I got it here:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0848442.html
Another good quote is "the law of conservation of energy, a fundamental law of physics, states that although energy can be changed in form it can be neither created nor destroyed," which can be found here:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0857980.html
"Laws" of physics DO get altered, as I'm sure you know; Einstein's adjustments to Newton's laws of gravity are the best-known example. Furthermore, the quantum world defies many of the laws of physics, AND the ability of physicists to explain most of what goes on there. Scientists realize that "laws" need to be amended, and new ones written, as new data becomes available, and that they do NOT know it all, not by a long shot... and WE need to accept that too. No scientist who ever lived would claim that ANY known laws apply to a totally unknown phenomenon... and neither should we. We can try to explain observed phenomena with existing laws, as that's all we've got, but even then we MUST stay aware at all times that any apparent resemblance to established energy forms may well be a coincidence.
Chanting "no no no" is easy; let's see you take on the REAL challenge, and present us with YOUR totally worked-out explanation for all things unknown. :-)
Sorry for the double-post, grrrrrrrrrr..... the 1st one didn't show until the 2nd one did.
I didn't mean to be (too) belligerent. I apologize. I was just upset at how, well, hokey the thread was starting to get. Just a reality check is all. Carry on.
--Mike Sheffler
Ashley, your view of the soul is lovely and almost poetic, and you may be right. Or Luke might. Or *I* might. Or Mike could be right that anything to do with these matters is "hokey."
We can't "prove" what the truth is, but maybe we can get a little closer to it by looking at it from every angle; you're correct, of course, when you point out that it's not really useful to focus in on a scientific view of something science has never "seen." It's interesting, though, that you preceded that view by refering to something medical, which IS part of science, as hard as that is to believe given the way some doctors act.
There are actually quite a few areas of the body where there are physical reactions that accompany emotional states generated by the brain; the stomach is a biggie, which is why we often "feel" things in the stomach. However, these reactions, while they CAN produce physical feelings, aren't the same thing as the emotions themselves, which is why I don't see any part of soul generation going on as a result.
Which leads me to another new realization, WOOHOO!! I've seen, heard and interacted with souls/spirits/ghosts, so I know they have intelligence, and the fact that they often seek out loved ones, as I've also experienced, means they have memory... but can they FEEL?!! I've seen no evidence that they have feelings, so I need to be UNsure if they have any.
Before you say it, yes, their "coming back" to contact loved ones COULD be seen as evidence of love (among other possible explanations)... but love may NOT be an emotion. Science has shown that ROMANTIC love is not an emotion; I posted about that here:
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/2004_01_25_omniverse_archive.html#107553561466350536
But, are OTHER kinds of love emotions? WE see all these sorts of love as facets of the same emotion, but, with one facet shown to NOT be an emotion, what does that say about the other factes, that they're not emotions either, or just that romantic "love" needs to be called something else because it's nothing like "real love"?
Ahhhhh, this is FAB-I'll be struggling over this one for DAYS!! :-)
That doesn't mean we have to clog up Luke's comments with the topic, so don't worry, I won't harp on it further; let's talk more about karma. :-)
Mike, your apology is accepted. :-)
If it makes you feel any better, I would have totally agreed with you a few years ago about matters metaphysical being hokey, as karma hadn't started hitting me over the head then.
Just for the record, my personal worldview, however metaphysical it may seem, is actually that there's NOTHING mysterious or mystical about any of these things, and thus that karma is nothing more than a force of nature that we haven't seen via science yet... and that once all the elements of quantum physics that don't make sense to us now DO make sense, we'll be looking right at the engine of karma. In other words, I've applied Occam's Razor and decided that, instead of MANY unknowns, there's only ONE, and that one is behind everything we can't currently explain.
I could certainly be wrong, of course; that's just the best I can do right now with the data I have. :-)
You're welcome, Ashley. :-)
You and I know that there are many things in the universe that science doesn't see; as long as our minds are open, we'll keep learning more about them.
Well I guess after nearly 70 comments or more, I'll join this one.
I don't want to be misconstrued as belligerant or obtuse, it’s just my 2-1/2 cents. It’s more like 13 cents so I hope I don’t blather on. Luke, you really got the pot boiling with this one, man.
I’ll just apologize NOW for the length of this post.
But I want to point to what I think is a huge problem within this entire philosophical / scientific discourse. It’s a problem of definition. I can’t believe it hasn’t been addressed.
“Energy”
Omni uses the word “energy” to describe a metaphysical “entity” or a spiritual “force”. But Omni, your “energy” is not the ENERGY as defined by our science in this universe. You say “science proves …” on more than one occasion when talking about “energy”. BUT science doesn’t prove anything about your “stuff” that you are naming “energy”. Physical laws defined by scientific models of the observable universe are based on a specifically defined “energy”. The word is really not appropriate for that which doesn’t have the real properties of energy as referred to our scientific models.
The soul, or the sentient presence that Omni feels is born of thoughts and feelings, is a thing not of this plane. This spiritual metaphysical philosophical hypothetical “energy” or karmic force or whatever, is not the ENERGY of “E = m c squared”. You can’t suddenly try to apply scientific laws to it just because the word “energy” was inserted into a philosophical discussion, a discussion where the word “spirit” or “life-force” or “god’s breath” could be used instead. Any more than, if we arbitrarily described this spirit force using the word “beer”, should we consult a brewmaster on the issue.
Whether or not Omni is on the right track with her worldview is not my point here.
I don’t agree with her but really her position is neither verifiable nor falsifiable in any case. Whether or not you believe in this karmic aura or spiritual other, Omni’s “energy” is absolutely non-quantifiable. It’s not observable or measurable.
I’m not just obsessing on a fine point here, but this has been causing a little scuffle in the overall conversation. Much of the volleying in this thread is based on the same word “energy” being applied to two entirely separate constructs.
Luke, I understand your ruminations, your exploration of a possible “interface” between the physical world we know, and the conceptual world of the “mind”. Or actually of some place where the subatomic forces actually influence the macro level workings of the brain. I think actually “consciousness” is a more apt term.
I’m stating the obvious but Luke, your exploration is philisophical, where Omni’s is spiritual.
The overlap, or the point of discussion between your two worldviews, is in the free-will vs. determinacy argument. Both of your views raise the question.
Luke, I won’t rehash any your post because it’s far more informed than my little satchel of facts, and also it would be rude to let my comment exceed, I don’t know, twenty-five thousand words anyway. :- )
Luke, re your comment:
“We seem to have free will. This is some crazy shit, especially when it seems pretty obvious that the rest of creation runs algorithmically, constrained by a rigid, non-dynamic set of laws.”
I think I see things more as random and infinitely expanding in terms of possible futures. The “rigid non-dynamic set of laws” describe the constraints of particles and energies in their interaction with each other, but I don’t see this ultimately as deterministic.
Stupid analogy but I think, say, the laws of physics determine constraints regarding the building blocks of a tree in a certain place and time and environment, still I don’t think there is a linear causality that would determine the exact shape and size of each leaf. I think even the relationship of the actual space and time are in flux, indeterminable. Even if we rewound to a point before the tree first formed and let fly again I think the infinite range of possible next moments might actually result in different “atom-space-time relationship(?)” to some degree the second time around. This may be simplistic of me, but in the range of a 15 billion year old universe….
Starting from big bang + 1 nanosecond, and each nanosecond since, the shear numerical mountain of possible directions that each particle of energy in each moment hence could proceed, to me, shows that all future moves are based on an overall randomness, chaos. But still perfectly within the constraints of the physical law of behavior.
And that each new moment creates yet an infinite number of possible directions for the next. Rather than assuming that in an infinite march of time all things would happen again exactly the same, I assume that with an infinite march of time comes an infinite number of possible constructions of each succeeding moment and that this infinity of possible futures simply continues to increase.
Free will makes sense to me in this manner.
Don Sheffler
(I think I'll have another amber lager,,,)
Don, I'm NOT using "the word “energy” to describe a metaphysical “entity” or a spiritual “force"; my contention has always been that karma is a form of energy like any other, with nothing "mystical" about it.
WHY do I think that? Because Occam's Razor leads me to reject the idea that karma is some sort of "stuff" that we don't even have a name for; if you have a more compelling argument for another view, I'm all ears, though.
Karma IS observable, FYI; I've seen, heard and interacted with spirits many times, and they're made of that very energy. :-)
Damn Don, where did you come from on that? Lol, those were some brilliant comments. Though, to be fair to me ;) , the problem of definition is one I've brought up before--though in reference to the disconnect between my and omni's definition of specific words.
I agree that there is a highly spiritual, noumenal side to Omni's Philosophy, which makes scientific verification impossible.
My little theory suffers the same fate as we just don't fucking know what goes on at the micro level.
That sucks, but with both of our models, rooted as they are in the material world, it leaves open at least the *possibility* that we can be discredited at some point.
It'll just be harder to check and falsify Omni's because she leaves open the possibility of parallel universi and whatnot.
So at the moment Omni and I both have to appeal to the God of the Gaps as it were, which makes both arguments SEEM to have a deeper spiritual aspect, rather than one rooted in the as yet unknown. That's the thing about the materialist's framework. If you have reason to believe something could exist in the hard and fast physical world, then speculation is fair game.
If science only allowed discussions of things that were certain we'd never get anything accomplished.
It seems to me that the greatest feats of science came from the largest leaps of scientific "faith"
That's just my $.015
What's your bag Don? You seem to be very well informed in matters scientific.
It's AWESOME that we've kept this so civil, despite wildly divergent viewpoints. Thanks to all.
If this discussion was on a forum somewhere, there'd be blood in the water lol.
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